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elon

Algorithm for blinds/button rotation

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elon    3

This is just a matter of idle curiosity.

I know that different poker sites and casinos handle the blinds (and entering a table) differently, but I haven't been able to figure out the rules on GoP3.

I have sat on the Big Blind for three consecutive hands fairly often (happens just about every day) and I've even seen the (Dealer) Button move BACKWARDS on seat to keep me off the button, rather than rotating forward. Sometimes this is due to a new player taking/replacing a seat between the dealer and Big Blind, but sometimes I don't see any such change. I don't think the system is biased against me. I'm fairly certain this must happen to everyone, but I have rarely if ever noticed being the Dealer/Button twice in a row. I've been stuck on the Small Blind too, but far less often, because the it's hard for a player change to occur between the Dealer/Small Blind, and players rarely abandon a seat when it's their turn to be the Dealer.

I'm just curious what the algorithm is for advancing the button/blinds on GoP3.

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elon    3

I'm not complaining. I've been winning over the past two weeks (despite all the wild holiday "bingo players"), and have won hugely (10s of Millions of chips in total) in the few months I've been playing...

BUT...

Don't you think it that minimal fairness dictates that players know the exact rules of the game? There's no excuse for not revealing the full table rules.

I just played Big Blind twice in a row on a 6-table, and the second time there was NO Small Blind. It wasn't the first time that's happened (though it is admittedly quite uncommon).

I can't think of any set of rules where I would be held on (disadvantageous) Big Blind twice in a row with NO player made Small blind, while the Button held their (advantageous) position. Given that there are two blinds, both should be filled by advancing the dealer to another player, making the former Big Blind the Small blind, and the player to the former Big Blind's left the new Big Blind. No matter HOW many players leave and enter the table, there should be a BB, a SB and a Button before each hand is dealt. It's that simple.

I'm not saying anything is crooked. I'm just asking what the rules are, because this simply should never happen. There should always be a big blind, small blind, and Button for every hand, and any responsible algorithm would designate them before dealing ANY cards.

If there's a legitimate set of rules for the rotation around the table, who not state them, so players can know? No casino or poker room would ever get away with not stating their rules in advance. Nor should they!

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Beridok    10

Hey Elon.

I saw your post earlier and since I lost most of my money by playing on cashgame tables (also, because I had, I played on Xmas Casino)... I started to pay a little attention to Blinds. And I noticed that once I actually had 2x BB in a row.

Perhaps this is a bug... Or broken algorithm - that makes Blinds based on previous players - if one of them is not "detected" properly, then it sets new "blind order"...
We will have to wait patiently till someone from the development team gives a statement.

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elon    3

I apologize to the staff if I seemed strident. I've run rather large forums in the past, and had leadership positions in professional organizations. I know that *I* didn't have time for every jerk who posted rudely. It must be worse in poker, where everyone  is sure they understand the math  and no one is to blame for their own losses. I understand the math/strategy well enough to know that it isn't so simple: it can change dramatically depending on who is at the table you're playing, and holiday-only players are their own breed.

I can name a number of house rules I've seen in poker rooms and online venues whereby a combination of players leaving and other players taking empty seats can force one to remain on a blind twice, even three times over thousands of hands. Many poker rooms deal with this by forcing you to wait until the BB comes around to you (obviously annoying to the casual recreational player --- and the resulting empty seats are unprofitable to good players). Others force you to post a BB or SB when you first sit at a table, regardless of your position. I don't know that there is any ideal solution.

I'm just asking "what are the rules for rotating the blinds/button here on GoP3"? I should hope there's a clear answer that someone on staff can find out for us. They're not posted anywhere, and I haven't been able to figure them out.

 

 

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elon    3

Okay, now I've got another situation for you.

Last hand: 5-seat table. I'm the big blind. Two people leave during the hand:  the player to my left (who would have been the next Big Blind) and the player to my right (who was the Button.

Next hand: the button jumps completely over me, 2 positions (counting the player to my left, who left during the last hand; his replacement couldn't play this hand) -- and I'm the Big Blind again!

I don't care who you assign BB and SB, but the Button should NEVER jump over a player. That's the best position in TXHE, and each player should get their turn. If you skipp all the way around the round and make the rightful Button  play a blind again while being bypassed for the Button -- well, in a real poker room, and you'll get a fight. Or at least a call for the floor boss.

Please explain the rules. If you can't explain how this happened, try WRITING a rule for blind/button rotation and looking at your algorithm to see if it always correctly follows that rule.

Again, I'm not whining. I have no reason to whine. I won about half a million tonight, even if I did cut my session short to post this question.

 

Edited by elon
added a few key words

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Dennis    5

Hey guys,

So Sorry for the late reply!

The honest answer is that i'm not sure. :)
To my best knowledge there isn't a real algorithm in place here, as the casual approach is used to keep the game simple to users.
The basic Poker rules are followed with the blinds, where it would simple move round, despite people leaving and joining.
This would also mean that in a heads up situation the blinds are different.. where the dealer becomes the small blind, instead of the big. (heads up could off course also happen if people leave..resulting in 2 times bigblind)

It's a good topic and i'll discuss it internally.
I think we could follow the casino rules more on this subject.

 

 

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elon    3

Computers can't be casual. They follow strict rules defined in algorithms. If the programmer isn't given a strict algorithm, they can't code it.

Sometimes the algorithm coded in the program code doesn't [initially] do what was intended, due to odd index/counter behaviors, esp when the incrementation isn't at the last possible instant. I'm cool with that, so long as it is corrected.

Sometimes the rules that are chosen aren't the ones that I would prefer. I'm cool with that too, so long as we are told what the actual rules are. I haven't been able to come up with any reasonable rules that move the button backwards , but I see that on short tables almost every day!

On reflection, I see that the strange behavior I have reported is many times as common on the short tables (5 players), like Tipi or Poker Resort, than on full 9-player tables. Perhaps this would help your programmers observe/debug the issue. On short tables, I observe an anomaly in rotation in almost each hour of play (or close to it), so it should be easy for your programmers to confirm

I don't mind if the rules put me on the Big Blind twice in a row. I just want to know what the rules for rotation are, so I can understand/confirm as I play. The rules for rotation shouldn't be too complex for a normal player to confirm on the fly.

 

Also, in my last example, it is possible that I misspoke: hat the Button was TWO places to my right as BB -- but he left after folding before the flop, so I didn't consider him when predicting my position in the next deal. That would've made the player to my immediate right the SB (as expected). The SB definitely left later in the hand; I noticed him going. Then, instead of the button jumping orward over me, it might have moved backwards -- a much rarer anomaly, but one that I have observed several times, including 10 minutes ago.

 

You'd get a riot if you tried to move the button backwards in a poker room. More importantly, it would indicate an error in the reasoning or implementation of the algorithm. Since New Year, I've only played a small fraction of the hands per day that I did before New Year, but the anomalies are still common enough to be unmistakeable on short tables. An error that only occurs every 4-8 rounds (of the table) might be overlooked by many players, but that's a 1-2% anomaly rate, which is freakishly high for a computer!

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elon    3

Hmm. I thought I'd posted follow-ups.

A reminder: I'm not complaining. I just want to know the full rules for button/blind rotation. That should be easy to read from the coding specs or even from the code itself.

I see apparent anomalies almost every day at the 5-handed short tables (mostly Poker Resort in Pro Forest, but I also see it less often in the Tipi games, which I only play when I know I'm playing well below par). I play little enough each day (3-4 sessions of ~20mins, but not all in short-table rooms) that it should easily show up for your testers if you only test Poker Resort.. I see it even when no player changes.

One possible trigger for a bug (and I'm not saying there is one, because you haven't told me what it is SUPPOSED  to do) might be the "Leave Table" button. Leaving a table is a two-step process. I a player presses the Right-arrow icon, they don't leave the table immediately; instead they are given a pop-up asking if they want to switch to another table or leave the "table" (actually: that poker room) entirely. If a player accidentally presses that right-arrow (or does it intentionally, because they are thinking of leaving) but closes the popup, perhaps because they weren't quick enough to do it before the Button moved, then there is no visible sign to the other players --or indeed to the player themselves-- but it's possible that the server takes notice of the removal request then restores the player with the same stack as before, if they close the pop-up.

Please understand that I'm trying to help. If a glitch exists, a player who figured out the bug could use it to keep another player in the BB/SB for one more hand, or to skip/delay their own turn as BB/SB.

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elon    3

This happened a few times this evening at 5-seat [short] tables at Poker Resort:

I'm the Big Blind. The player acting before me (Small Blind, due recieve the Button on the next hand), leave during/after the hand. The Button passes OVER me, instead of passing to me. This violates every rule of button passing I know (I was never the button, and won't be the button until the next round)

Again, I'm not complaining, I'm reporting. I've been steadily growing my pot, and silently roll my eyes when anyone cries "rigged" (even if they are a highly esteemed teammate).

This isn't the typical complaint based on a misunderstanding of statistics. Every player at the table should be able to tell who will be the button next, and each player should be button once per round.

Edited by elon

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